The ESRB's decision to give Manhunt 2 an Adults Only rating in the US seems to have already sent shockwaves throughout the industry about what it can and can't get away with. Condemned: Bloodshot senior producer, Constantine Hantzopoulos, tells CVG that a few features have already been pulled from the game in light of the ESRB / Manhunt situation.
During E3 we met up with Hantzopoulos for a look at Condemned: Bloodshot. For us the original was a prize pick of the 360 launch line-up and we're looking forward to the second one. But we were keen to know if the Manhunt ban made him think twice about how far the brutal aspect of Condemned's gameplay could be pushed. Would the ban make him (and other developers) think twice about what he could get away with?
"Absolutely it did," he told CVG. "And one of the things I want to make clear is that this does not take place in the real world. This is a fictional universe. That said we're pretty cognisant of the ESRB and the Manhunt thing."
Hantzopoulos has been on the wrong end of the ESRB in the past. "I worked on Fahrenheit (known as Indigo Prophecy in the States) and had to cut the sex scenes out of the game for the US. Yes, I was the guy that did that. It sucked because I don't believe in that, right. But you've got to do what you've got to do. We're working closely with the ESRB to make sure everything goes through okay but there's stuff we've cut already. There were things we were doing that even I couldn't believe we were going to those places."
When asked for examples of what we might now never see in a game again, we were told, "An example of what we cut would be putting someone's head in a vice. That was too much, you know. There are also some decapitations we've lost. But this is more Sin City than it is real world and we want people to know that this is not a real world.
"Manhunt kind of takes place in a real world where you're killing prisoners and people. This is a sensitive subject and we'll pull back if we need to. If someone says we can't that, we'll pull back a little. We're actually in pretty good shape. Putting someone in a dumpster is comical, it's funny. But putting someone through a TV set..."
Look out for CVG's full interview and Condemned 2 impressions later this week.
So I take it Hostel 3, Saw 4 and every other over the top graphic and gory horror film will be toned down too then? No, course not 'cos its one rule for video games and another for films!
Hostel 2 features such savoury delights as a screaming, naked girl is hung upside down and sliced to death with a scythe by a naked, older woman who stands below her and bathes in her blood. The girl's torso is slashed until she's half-dead, then her throat is slit. Or how about a cannibal carving strips of flesh out of a dying boy's legs and groin and eating them. Or the castration of a man tied up in a chair. You see his c**k hanging out of his pants with a knife pressed to it. His genitals are then cut off and, while the man howls and bleeds to death, the bloody mess is picked up and thrown to a dog, which eats themup.
This was all passed uncut by the BBFC, yet Condemened isn't aloud a few decapitations and someone's head getting squished in a vice?
Oh and I borrowed the descritions of Hostel 2 from www.dvdtimes.co.uk (there's no way in hell you'd catch me watching that torture porn nonsense)
I think the BBFC gets more uncomfortable when you actually control the violence rather than just watch it. But I agree, I find is stupid the rather explicit violence that is allowed if it is a film rather than a game. I still not convinced that most people don't still think games are just for kids.
I still not convinced that most people don't still think games are just for kids.
I think this is definately part of the problem, I can imagine some twokn at the ESRB saying I cant have my kids seeing that!
I am more aghast at the Farenheit sex scene being cut, that is just crazy, we see sex everywhere, and there is normally a sex scene in your average age 15+ blockbuster so I don't see why this should be cut from Farenheit.
LOL, so, we are allowed to watch adverts for perfume containing very sexual scenes, adverts for boxers and lingerie containing even more sexual scenes, we can watch 15 rated movies which have more than just a simple, under the covers sex scene, BUT GOD FORBID YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT IN AN 18 RATED GAME, WTF ARE YOU, INSANE?!?!
When will people relaise that gaming is not just for kids? I think I saw somewhere that over 60% of gamers are over the age of 18 (excluding the Wii). When will this fact be reflected with video games getting the same treatment as films and other media entertainment?
As was pointed out in a different forum, this is about the ESRB. The US certification board.
The makers of Condemned 2 should submit the game THEY INTENDED TO MAKE to the BBFC (if necessary) who incidentally would try to suggest any alterations that might be necessary for the game to receive classification, (if it even encountered trouble in that respect) according to their response about the Manhunt 2 decision. I'll be cross with SEGA if they do anything less. (Boycottingly cross.)
So I take it Hostel 3, Saw 4 and every other over the top graphic and gory horror film will be toned down too then? No, course not 'cos its one rule for video games and another for films!
Err no, it's precisely the same rule, since those films would also be Adults Only.
The difference is that some (but certainly not all) cinemas and shops are willing to stock Adults Only movies, but the vast majority aren't willing to stock Adults Only films. Which isn't a rule, but a policy.
I think this whole censorship is crazy. It's unbalanced and I'm amazed that there is this kind of hysteria still surrounding the horror genre in 2007.
On the other hand, after watching a couple of clips of Hostel 2, I can honestly say that it looks like the most vile excuse for a film I've ever seen... and I love gory films (Bad Taste, Evil Dead 2 etc).
So if Condemned 2 and Manhunt 2 in their uncensored state were nothing more than an excuse to push the boundaries of taste then I'd say they're right to be censored (of course I don't know that for certain). Surely torture shouldn't be touted as entertainment? Unless of course you oppose censorship purely on the principle that it appeases the mainstream, in which case sure, let's tie someone to a bed and eat them alive for entertainment. Duh
I just don't think that gamers (or film lovers) really gain that much from having access to this kind of "shock" media, particularly if it's just on a point of principle and/or freedom of expression.
So I take it Hostel 3, Saw 4 and every other over the top graphic and gory horror film will be toned down too then? No, course not 'cos its one rule for video games and another for films!
Err no, it's precisely the same rule, since those films would also be Adults Only.
The difference is that some (but certainly not all) cinemas and shops are willing to stock Adults Only movies, but the vast majority aren't willing to stock Adults Only films. Which isn't a rule, but a policy.
You do realize that Manhunt got banned outright (not an AO rating - it doesn't exist in this country) in the UK, which caused the US to take a similar action ie ensure that it wouldn't be released. Hostel and Saw and others of their ilk receive an 18 rating, which apparently Manhunt 2 is too extreme for... That's the hypocrisy people are trying to point out.
Staying with Condemned - I'm glad they're taking this route. Now, I don't like censorship anymore than the next man - But lets face it, the examples your stacking it up to? Hostel? Was crap. It was a terrible, horrible film that was so out there to shock and be XTREME that it was just laughable. You could tell there was no thought behind it, just 'OH MY GOD! SOMEBODY'S EYE BEING BURNED OUT?! AWESOME!!!!' I'd rather not have that kind of philosophy applied to... Anything. As such I'm glad the people behind Condemned are applying some thought, stepping back and saying 'Actually... That scene does *nothing*.' rather than including it for the sake of it.
Condemned 1 was a great game not because of the rather brutal combat, nor because of bone crunching finishing moves. It was great because it had an immersive storyline, and was fun to play. Keep those elements, and make sure the other elements meld to those ideas.
As sensible as it is to dull down a game's content to fit a rating and not be banned it's stupid that the system is like that in the first place. It's all about the whole 'Games influence kids' argument. But the problem witht hat argument is that the only way kids, being under 16 in this case and example, of getting games like Condmened 2 or Manhunt 2 or any other game which is an 18 is if their parents buy them it, in which case it's a problem with the parenting, or if the shop owner ignores age ratings, in which case action should be brought against the shop owners. An 18 year old has enough sense and probably enough experiance in watching or seeing gore, violence, sex, and other such things. At 18 you can buy full hardcore, uncensored porn (here in the UK at any rate, not sure about the US) and yet an 18 rated game with a sex scene in it can be banned or have the content trimmed. The example of Hostel and Hostel 2 has already been brought up and I fail to see why watching extreme content and interacting with extreme content in a game should be seen in different lights. Ronald Reagan was shot because the shooter had WATCHED Taxi Driver and wanted to do something to impress the actress who played the young girl in the film, he had an unhealthy obsession with it. Nobody has ever commited a crime based on a game or anything similar. It's always speculation. The Columbine murders were blamed on video games and metal because someone said that the two kids responsible 'were into dark music and violent video games'. I mean it's just stupid. The ESRB and BFC shouldn't ban or tone down games based on content, they shuld slap an 18 on it and then take actions to prevent it being in the hands of under 18 year olds. Banning something simply denies us of something. Does a game need to be sickeningly gory? No. But having it in a game shouldn't be warrant for a ban. They tried to ban the Grand Theft Auto games several times. Yes, I like the games because you can kill anyone, blow up cars, all of that shazzam and it's all about the underworld of crime. But because I can do all of that in the game means I don't feel the need to stress relief by actually going out and shooting someone in the face with a shotgun. I feel that extreme content in games is a good thing because it allows us to act out stuff like that without needing to do it in real life. More people are influenced by films than by games because films contain actors and actresses, idols which people asire to be like, obsess over, fall in love with. Seeing an actor in a movie killing someone won't cause most of us to want to do the same but for the few who do take obsessions to extreme levels it's more powerful than watching a CG character do the exact same thing. The ESRB and BBFC should lay off, stop banning games simply because they feel it's too violent, or too gory or too politically incorrect. Just let the games get released as extreme as they are made and if some 10 year old ends up playing it, then so what. It'l just be a ten year odl sitting at a computer, playing a game and going 'Woah! Cool!' before going into school the next day and talking about how such-and-such's head came off and the blood went all over such-n-such in the game. The whole ratings scene should shift focus from the products to the people. Someone buys an 18 game for their 10 year old kids? Fine the parents or whoever bought it. A shop sells adult products to a 10 year old? Fine the shop. It's as simple as that really. Sticking legislations and fines and preventatives in place to stop adults buying games for younger people or that prevent stores from selling them to younger people will sort out more than banning products the rest of us actually want in all their glory. Nuff said on my part.
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