In the latest interview of our Creative Minds series with industry greats, Elite creator David Braben has discussed the impact of violent games on the wider perception of the games industry.
"I think at the root of this problem is that there's still an expectation among parents that ESRB/PEGI/BBFC ratings can be ignored - possibly based on their experience of games when they were younger," he told CVG.
"There have been a few games that have strange ratings like Gears of War (18). That does not make sense to me. Why is it not a 15? Okay, there are some slightly gruesome bodies hanging up in the first section of the game, but this is no more than you'd expect in a 15 film like Alien Vs Predator or The Terminator films.
"This means that when a more genuine 18 comes along, parents assume it is no worse than Gears of War, and is perhaps why Manhunt 2 was banned, as they felt they could not give it the same rating as Gears. Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2 (I haven't had the chance to play it), it is not the sort of game the industry should be making, as it is inevitably going to attract controversy.
"While Manhunt 2 might have brought short term gain to Rockstar, it damages the reputation of the industry as a whole, long term. We do need a strong, consistent rating system, where 18 really means 18, and is enforced, and then it may be more acceptable to make such games, or to bring in an additional rating (as in the US) of Adults Only - which are only sold in very restricted places."
I have been against the "ban" of Manhunt 2, mostly Nintendo and Playstations part in it, due to them choosing not to allow the games on their console. A rating that marks it is ultra violent is fine, if that is how the game is (haven't played it). But it sure isn't okay, when a rating category is banned from consoles. Then why even have that rating, why not dump it and not even allow the games to be published? And then we are in a place, where there isn't the needed developers freedom. Not good...
My problem is that of course, Manhunt 2 and Gears of War isn't in the same category. Or at least that is the feeling I have, without having played any of them, but GoW is your typical shooter. Manhunt seems to have more focus on being a murderer and the killing proces, instead of the enemy deaths just being another kill with a few bullets.
Not sure what my point is... I understand it is not good for the industry, as it is very easy to use Manhunt as an example as to why games are harmful. But it isn't okay either to get afraid of what might be thought of a game, and start to get over sensetive towards censorship. Afraid of hurting someone.
If a game is purely for the violence and killing someone in the most hurtful way, I need to be convinced as to what that game is good for. Manhunt seems to fall under this category, or it is just my poor knowledge of the game. But a game like GTA, GoW, GRAW etc where there is a bigger purpose than just the killing, where there are tactics, driving, missions, and all of that which drives the gameplay, it is different.
A certain person (Mr. Thompson) has complained about games prior to Manhunt, which where harmless and maybe even healthy to your brain, since it developed strategic sense, reflexes etc. But critique of this game seems to be justified, at least until I hear more about the game and why they designed it.
i think the guy's talking a load of crap! parents shouldn't let their kids play something that's rated above their age! maybe games were more tame in their day, but next gen has moved games to a more realistic level. this is now, not years ago. if parents go and buy 18 rated games for their 10 year old kids, then they shouldn't complain that it's unsuitable. games don't hurt people, people do. also a good mix of kids, and adult games is good for the industry, not bad!
I'm pretty shocked at how many people have just totally supported Manhunt 2. It looks so depressing and sick. It really says a lot about the state of society today when people a stamping their feet and crying about a game being banned when that game is based on murdering people in a sick and twisted manner.
There has to be a line people. You can't just let anything out in the wild and say "WELL IT'S FOR ADULTS". What next? .......
Did any of you (other than crashlock, ) actually read the article or jump the band wagon and flame him because he mentioned Manhunt 2? He just said Halo 3 and something like DOOM3, and F.E.A.R. are two very different things, yet have the SAME rating. I totally agree, a ten year old may be able to handle Half-Life 2's gore/language, but could NOT handle F.E.A.R.'s absolute gruesomeness. (F.E.A.R. and DOOM3 still rock.)
I'm pretty shocked at how many people have just totally supported Manhunt 2. It looks so depressing and sick. It really says a lot about the state of society today when people a stamping their feet and crying about a game being banned when that game is based on murdering people in a sick and twisted manner.
There has to be a line people. You can't just let anything out in the wild and say "WELL IT'S FOR ADULTS". What next? .......
Dr Kawashima's Pedophile Training???
That's amusing considering your avatar is Mario getting "1 up" on the Princess' behind.
Did any of you (other than crashlock, ) actually read the article or jump the band wagon and flame him because he mentioned Manhunt 2? He just said Halo 3 and something like DOOM3, and F.E.A.R. are two very different things, yet have the SAME rating. I totally agree, a ten year old may be able to handle Half-Life 2's gore/language, but could NOT handle F.E.A.R.'s absolute gruesomeness. (F.E.A.R. and DOOM3 still rock.)
I read it and agreed, that if movies like AVP gets 15 rating, Gears of War shouldn't get an 18 rating. I know, it might be different people that rate them, but there should be some sort of sense in it.
When news got out about the ban of the sequel, I was very against that decision. As gory or violent as it may be, an Adult rating should be enough. Of course there will be people that will buy it for the chance to live out the violence and enjoy it, because they're mentally ill, but the same is to be said about American History X, which pro-nazi people can go get.
If this should be banned, so should a lot of movies and sports.
Did any of you (other than crashlock, ) actually read the article or jump the band wagon and flame him because he mentioned Manhunt 2? He just said Halo 3 and something like DOOM3, and F.E.A.R. are two very different things, yet have the SAME rating. I totally agree, a ten year old may be able to handle Half-Life 2's gore/language, but could NOT handle F.E.A.R.'s absolute gruesomeness. (F.E.A.R. and DOOM3 still rock.)
I read it and agreed, that if movies like AVP gets 15 rating, Gears of War shouldn't get an 18 rating. I know, it might be different people that rate them, but there should be some sort of sense in it.
When news got out about the ban of the sequel, I was very against that decision. As gory or violent as it may be, an Adult rating should be enough. Of course there will be people that will buy it for the chance to live out the violence and enjoy it, because they're mentally ill, but the same is to be said about American History X, which pro-nazi people can go get.
If this should be banned, so should a lot of movies and sports.
I forgot that I hadn't read your super long post.
Also, did any of you people saying that game rating should be heavily enforced, did any of you happen to play DooM when you were a kid? If you did, it's rated M now.
you might as well say that you're murdering people in any fps or ww2 game! you shoot people and kill them. just because in some parts of manhunt you have to kill using stealth rather than a gun, people keep saying it's a murder game! there's no random killing in it, you have to kill a few guards in order to escape from prison. gta is more a murder game, were you can just randomly kill innocent people! were was the big fuss about gta?
Braben should shut his mouth. Manhunt 2 is a violent game for adults. Its not for kids. Why should adults suffer because a few stupid parents will buy this game for their brats? Parents who supply rated games like Manhunt to their children should be prosectuted. Problem solved.
I'm pretty shocked at how many people have just totally supported Manhunt 2. It looks so depressing and sick. It really says a lot about the state of society today when people a stamping their feet and crying about a game being banned when that game is based on murdering people in a sick and twisted manner.
There has to be a line people. You can't just let anything out in the wild and say "WELL IT'S FOR ADULTS". What next? .......
Dr Kawashima's Pedophile Training???
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this whole situation as a poor reflection on gamers. Are people so desparate to be recognised as adults that they feel the need to play hideously violent games for the sake of it? Is this really entertainment? It all looks rather dismal to me.
To put it another way - are these people so insecure about their adult status (assuming that they are indeed adults) that they don't want to be seen playing games that - perish the thought - don't involve killing? TBH this all reminds me of the attitude of those kids who take up smoking so they can look more grown-up... the irony being that it does the complete opposite.
you might as well say that you're murdering people in any fps or ww2 game! you shoot people and kill them. just because in some parts of manhunt you have to kill using stealth rather than a gun, people keep saying it's a murder game! there's no random killing in it, you have to kill a few guards in order to escape from prison. gta is more a murder game, were you can just randomly kill innocent people! were was the big fuss about gta?
You should look back in recent history my friend. GTA has had more bad press than Manhunt could ever dream of over it's various incarnations. I remember when the world was in danger of imploding when GTA came out on the pc many years ago.
It's a cyclic thing. There is always going to be a focus for people who need something to blame and every medium has taken it's knocks in the past. Music corrupted a generation and now it's the turn of games. I'm sure one 3d holo-cubes that insert directly into the head come out everyone will be banging on at them about how they are 'taking down society'
On a side note. David Braben is guilty of bigger crimes than Manhunt II, foremost everything he's ever put out since Elite. I think if anyone has put out software that the industry should shy away from its him. Ian Bell was the man with the ideas and Braben was his monkey. He has no reason to pour scorn on an industry he clearly hates. He must hate it, he released Frontier.
is this guy completely and utterly stupid? has he not seen the decapitating or chainsaw and what u can do wiv it on GOW? he tries 2 make a gud point by basically saying parents r ignorant towards games and then proves he himself is!
The guy actually makes a good point. The perception that game ratings are meaningless IS out there, and, like he said, there is no parity between one games rating and another. Get that tightened up, and maybe we wouldn't see games like Manhunt banned in the future.
Of course, I disagree that this is 'bad for the industry. Aside from the fact that any publicity is good publicity, this sort of genre hasn't done the movie industry any harm, has it.
I personally think Braben does have a point about the ratings system. The majority of parents out there have absolutely no idea what a typical 18 rated game contains and still think we're dealing with cutesy sprites, if they knew the realism that is now achievable and rapidly approaching movie film levels then I think many (the ones who give a crap that is!) would definitely change their attitude toward games.
Also, while I think there should be games aimed at the adult market, I am sick of R* courting controversy at every opportunity to get their games hyped when I know they are aware that it is the underage kids who will want the game the most. And for me MH2's ethos of actively trying to find ways to kill & torture is what sets it apart from your average 18 based "kill or be killed" game!
Sorry, i think that total s**t, does making films like saw or hostel damage the film industry?, or give it a bad name?, no!, because those films are part of a genre of films that people enjoy!, why should games as an art form & an industry feel it has to not make certain types of games or avoid subject matter incase of offending someone!?!?....
The first Manhunt game was utter rubbish; if ever there was a game built more around being controversial than good, that was it. Stripped of its violence, the game itself is mediocre at best and highly repetitive. I think it was one game that didn't deserve a sequel so it doesn't bother me in the slightest that it got banned.
As for Gears of War's 18 rating... the game allows you chainsaw enemies with lots of blood effects so it's no surprise that it got the rating it did. It's certainly a more gruesome game than, say, Call of Duty 2.
Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2 (I haven't had the chance to play it),
So you haven't actually even played the game? Then shut your mouth about it!
it is not the sort of game the industry should be making, as it is inevitably going to attract controversy.
Since when is controversy a bad thing. What, are we just all supposed to be good little consumers, incapable of thinking for ourselves? Is the industry just looking for a flock of sheep? Some mindless zombies who throw down $50-$60 for a game and like it because you told them to? And who died and made you spokesperson for the "industry".
controversyn. - a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention; disputation concerning a matter of opinion.
Exactly where is anyone getting the idea that controversy is an evil thing? Without controversy, there can be no change. Without change, there can be no improvement. When Plato and Aristotle proposed the earth was round, was that not controversial? When Copernicus proposed his heliocentrical model, was that not controversial??
And don't say, "that's different". There is no difference except that which is subjective. If Nintendo and Sony don't want ultra-violent games playable on their systems, fine. That is their decision. I have no interest in tearing down their philosophies. But to say that these games should not be made at all is just ludicrous, if not fascist. And it certainly has nothing to do with how games are rated.
The beauty of the PC is that anyone with the proper education can create a game for it. Consoles have a more restrictive architecture, but with mod-chips can still play homebrew games. But what Braben is saying is that these types of games shouldn't exist at all. It is nothing more than a delusional little man trying to play "Big Brother" because he thinks his ideas should be law. It is time these small-minded "Jerry Falwells" quit trying to push their intolerance and mind-control on consumers and let creativity remain unlegislated.
a slightly edited version of manhunt 2 will be released in north america on october 31st (halloween) sales figures will then show if it's good or not for the industry. i'd expect will see a european release the usual 3 months later, spring 08.
it is not the sort of game the industry should be making, as it is inevitably going to attract controversy.
Since when is controversy a bad thing. What, are we just all supposed to be good little consumers, incapable of thinking for ourselves?
Exactly, what other entertainment industry would ever even consider the idea that controversial content is intrinsically bad? It's a ridiculous, patronising statement and actually belittles the gaming industry.
It's like he's saying we should all just keep our little heads down and not make or play anything that will cause a fuss.
Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2 (I haven't had the chance to play it),
So you haven't actually even played the game? Then shut your mouth about it!
Now why the heck would I want to shut my mouth, I am entitled to an opinion and to share my thoughts on this forum. I carefully wrote in a disclaimer, stating I had not played the game. I even accompanied my thoughts with a lot of if's, as it was dependant on how the game is.
Of course I haven't played it. If we couldn't talk about it before we play it, there would be no posts here. How fun is that? I made sure to make it clear I didn't mean to make it sound like my words were law and I was an all-knowing God about this case, so you do the shutting up and I'll keep puzzling with my thoughts, fool...
Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2 (I haven't had the chance to play it),
So you haven't actually even played the game? Then shut your mouth about it!
You made a good arguement but sullied it with this opening statement. Aside from the fact it was overly brash, and even rude, to suggest that someone can't formulate an opinion on something that they haven't experienced themselves is just downright wrong. There are many movies I've not seen, but won't because I know (or, more correctly, THINK) that I'll hate them.
Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2 (I haven't had the chance to play it),
So you haven't actually even played the game? Then shut your mouth about it!
You made a good arguement but sullied it with this opening statement. Aside from the fact it was overly brash, and even rude, to suggest that someone can't formulate an opinion on something that they haven't experienced themselves is just downright wrong. There are many movies I've not seen, but won't because I know (or, more correctly, THINK) that I'll hate them.
And I was very careful in admiting my thoughts were based on "if the game is this way, then I think this", as written in my first post:
A rating that marks it is ultra violent is fine, if that is how the game is (haven't played it).
My problem is that of course, Manhunt 2 and Gears of War isn't in the same category. Or at least that is the feeling I have, without having played any of them, but GoW is your typical shooter. Manhunt seems to have more focus on being a murderer and the killing proces, instead of the enemy deaths just being another kill with a few bullets.
I think I made myself clear, before thinking aloud.
Having said that, from what I've heard of Manhunt 2 (I haven't had the chance to play it),
So you haven't actually even played the game? Then shut your mouth about it!
You made a good arguement but sullied it with this opening statement. Aside from the fact it was overly brash, and even rude, to suggest that someone can't formulate an opinion on something that they haven't experienced themselves is just downright wrong. There are many movies I've not seen, but won't because I know (or, more correctly, THINK) that I'll hate them.
And I was very careful in admiting my thoughts were based on "if the game is this way, then I think this", as written in my first post:
A rating that marks it is ultra violent is fine, if that is how the game is (haven't played it).
My problem is that of course, Manhunt 2 and Gears of War isn't in the same category. Or at least that is the feeling I have, without having played any of them, but GoW is your typical shooter. Manhunt seems to have more focus on being a murderer and the killing proces, instead of the enemy deaths just being another kill with a few bullets.
I think I made myself clear, before thinking aloud.
It was the 'shut your mouth' comment I took exception too, not anything you'd said.
It was the 'shut your mouth' comment I took exception too, not anything you'd said.
My comment was meant to be quoting the guy before you Though it sounded like you agreed a little with him, so partly to you too. He was the one I got upset about though, due to the bad language, so wasn't mad at you ...
It was the 'shut your mouth' comment I took exception too, not anything you'd said.
My comment was meant to be quoting the guy before you Though it sounded like you agreed a little with him, so partly to you too. He was the one I got upset about though, due to the bad language, so wasn't mad at you ...
Well, I did, do, partly - just opening up an argument with 'shut your damn mouth' is not the way to spark off a healthy debate.
I can't even remember what the point was anymore either..
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) actually read the article or jump the band wagon and flame him because he mentioned Manhunt 2? He just said Halo 3 and something like DOOM3, and F.E.A.R. are two very different things, yet have the SAME rating. I totally agree, a ten year old may be able to handle Half-Life 2's gore/language, but could NOT handle F.E.A.R.'s absolute gruesomeness. (F.E.A.R. and DOOM3 still rock.)
Though it sounded like you agreed a little with him, so partly to you too. He was the one I got upset about though, due to the bad language, so wasn't mad at you 
