Gran Turismo 5 could go the way of Burnout Paradise and Project Gotham Racing 4 and throw motorbikes into the mix after GT series creator Kazunori Yamauchi said the inclusion of the two-wheelers remains "a possibly".
The game, which has been in development for over four years, will be on shelves in just four months time (March 2010 in Japan), but Yamauchi insists bikes could still make the cut.
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"If that's what users really want in the game, I think that's a possibility," he said. Yamauchi also said changing weather effects were also still in consideration. "Technically it's already possible to do in the game, it's just how we're going to have that have meaning in the game."
There's still no clear word on the game's western release, however. "In Japan it's due to be released in March 2010. And the release date in North America shouldn't deviate too far from that, but it hasn't been decided yet," Yamauchi told IGN.
Release them as DLC. I don't know why they keep talking about adding things into the game. It has spent far to much time in development and needs to be released.
If they add bikes then the cars will become redundant. If you can accelerate like a beast, use walls to corner and can't fall off (which I assume would be the equivalent of car damage) then even the fastest cars will feel slow in comparison.
And if they do simulate coming off the bike, will they also simulate the run back to the bike to get back on? And will other players be able to run them down while they're on foot?
It's starting to sound like they're looking for reasons to delay it further.
If they add bikes then the cars will become redundant. If you can accelerate like a beast, use walls to corner and can't fall off (which I assume would be the equivalent of car damage) then even the fastest cars will feel slow in comparison.
And if they do simulate coming off the bike, will they also simulate the run back to the bike to get back on? And will other players be able to run them down while they're on foot?
It's starting to sound like they're looking for reasons to delay it further.
I don't think that bikes and cars would race together, like PGR. If you remember, PD released a bike racer for the PS2, using the GT engine and it was fairly decent.
I expect there would be separate races and tournaments for the bikes, if it ever came to light.
It would probably come as DLC, later down the line.
If they add bikes then the cars will become redundant. If you can accelerate like a beast, use walls to corner and can't fall off (which I assume would be the equivalent of car damage) then even the fastest cars will feel slow in comparison.
And if they do simulate coming off the bike, will they also simulate the run back to the bike to get back on? And will other players be able to run them down while they're on foot?
It's starting to sound like they're looking for reasons to delay it further.
I don't think that bikes and cars would race together, like PGR. If you remember, PD released a bike racer for the PS2, using the GT engine and it was fairly decent.
I expect there would be separate races and tournaments for the bikes, if it ever came to light.
It would probably come as DLC, later down the line.
You could race bikes and cars together in PGR 4. But as you said earlier, weather effects are the feature they should put in.
If they add bikes then the cars will become redundant. If you can accelerate like a beast, use walls to corner and can't fall off (which I assume would be the equivalent of car damage) then even the fastest cars will feel slow in comparison.
And if they do simulate coming off the bike, will they also simulate the run back to the bike to get back on? And will other players be able to run them down while they're on foot?
It's starting to sound like they're looking for reasons to delay it further.
I don't think that bikes and cars would race together, like PGR. If you remember, PD released a bike racer for the PS2, using the GT engine and it was fairly decent.
I expect there would be separate races and tournaments for the bikes, if it ever came to light.
It would probably come as DLC, later down the line.
You could race bikes and cars together in PGR 4. But as you said earlier, weather effects are the feature they should put in.
That's what I meant. I Probably didn't word it very well. It suited PGR4's more arcadey racing, though I wasn't a fan of two wheels, to be honest.
I can't believe I didn't think of splitting them up like that, I'm obviously losing the plot. But some of it still applies - a prostrate biker on the track should still pose a danger. I guess it depends what level of "simulation" you want to go with.
If they add bikes then the cars will become redundant. If you can accelerate like a beast, use walls to corner and can't fall off (which I assume would be the equivalent of car damage) then even the fastest cars will feel slow in comparison.
And if they do simulate coming off the bike, will they also simulate the run back to the bike to get back on? And will other players be able to run them down while they're on foot?
It's starting to sound like they're looking for reasons to delay it further.
I don't think that bikes and cars would race together, like PGR. If you remember, PD released a bike racer for the PS2, using the GT engine and it was fairly decent.
I expect there would be separate races and tournaments for the bikes, if it ever came to light.
It would probably come as DLC, later down the line.
You could race bikes and cars together in PGR 4. But as you said earlier, weather effects are the feature they should put in.
That's what I meant. I Probably didn't word it very well. It suited PGR4's more arcadey racing, though I wasn't a fan of two wheels, to be honest.
Some of the achievements were good like that Matrix one and the jumps etc. But overall it didn't work.
If they add bikes then the cars will become redundant. If you can accelerate like a beast, use walls to corner and can't fall off (which I assume would be the equivalent of car damage) then even the fastest cars will feel slow in comparison.
And if they do simulate coming off the bike, will they also simulate the run back to the bike to get back on? And will other players be able to run them down while they're on foot?
It's starting to sound like they're looking for reasons to delay it further.
It's amazing how many Brits don't understand sarcasm, but then I guess some things DO get lost in translation.
Don't be a plonker Daj, the only rule is March 2010 Japan. End of line.
Yamauchi was tossed another needless question with motorbikes and in true sensei style he's throwing out options and keeping everyone guessing. He did say that Tourist Trophy 2 would be a possible scene for motorbikes. There are many possibilities and they're all technically possible. It doesn't imply anything else.
PD has been working on localised damage, location aware time + weather, a rewind feature, a track editor & getting the Stig's Top Gear test track times into the game. There is NO confirmation that any or all of these things will make GT5 and you will not see any confirmation until just before the game is released. Various features may not be up to Yamauchi's standards close to the release date and will need more time & improvement, meaning they will slip to GT6 and later versions. In other words, even if you see leaked video footage of a track editor - don't automatically assume it'll be in the finished game (GT5)!
The timescale is fixed and it's the feature set which isn't. Everyone can and will keep on speculating right up until just before release. That is all part of being on board the hype train.
After a couple of years of announced release dates and delays, you'll have to forgive people for being a little skeptical about the lastest one.
They don't seem to actually make any confirmation statements to the world, they just release more and more screenshots. So yes, I'm hoping that March is actually the date we see GT5, but the more they fart around with rumoured info and denials and hints at stuff we've not actually seen, the more I start to doubt it.
After a couple of years of announced release dates and delays, you'll have to forgive people for being a little skeptical about the lastest one.
They don't seem to actually make any confirmation statements to the world, they just release more and more screenshots. So yes, I'm hoping that March is actually the date we see GT5, but the more they fart around with rumoured info and denials and hints at stuff we've not actually seen, the more I start to doubt it.
The only release date Sony / PD issued for GT5 is March 2010. Everything else has been pure speculation and rumour. Just because someone asks Yamauchi a question doesn't mean he must answer it and if anything, his responses haven't confirmed anything except to say that they're working on various things. That's the only thing you should take from it.
I've got a bike You can ride it if you like It's got a basket A bell that rings And things to make it look good I'd give it to you if I could But I borrowed it.
The only release date Sony / PD issued for GT5 is March 2010. Everything else has been pure speculation and rumour. Just because someone asks Yamauchi a question doesn't mean he must answer it and if anything, his responses haven't confirmed anything except to say that they're working on various things. That's the only thing you should take from it.
That's fair enough, but the actual game feature list hasn't been confirmed either. And only 5 months from the alleged official confirmed launch date we should have a little bit more. GT5P's "career" for wont of a better word, is pretty basic (and since it's basically a demo that's okay) but it's now 2 years since that was released and there's plenty of expansion they should be able to give on it.
I'd much rather they came out and said "here's what's in, here's what's not" than repeatedly making vague non-committal statements and releasing endless screenshots. We know it's pretty, but it's going to need something under the surface too.
To be honest, if GT5 plays the same as Prologue, then I'll be happy. Yes, prologue was simplistic in the way it played out, but that was no different to the other prologue GT's that had been released on PS2.
I think it goes without saying that GT5 will have a lot more meat on the bone than Prologue.
And because GT is one of Sony's biggest franchises, it receives more flak. Plain and simple.
The fans (like me) will love it no matter what. Everybody else can waste their lives away, moaning about it's lack of whatever is fashionable at the time.
I'd much rather they came out and said "here's what's in, here's what's not" than repeatedly making vague non-committal statements and releasing endless screenshots. We know it's pretty, but it's going to need something under the surface too.
Therein lies the problem. If Yamauchi doesn't yet know what will meet his standards come end of Jan '2010, then he can't very well say what will definitely be in the game. It is better he continues as is rather than make promises. Everyone will find out what's included in good time.
PD never stops working on different aspects of GT, but every so often they'll take a view on what they've done and decide what should be cut to meet a release date.
It is better to cut a 1/4 pound of meat along with some fat off your cow in the kitchen than it is to dump 5 kilos of fat on someone's dinner plate. Try asking your wife...
When GT5 is released some people will be around to support it, while everyone else will get back to working on their feature(s), so that in a couple of years we'll see a variety of new things.
PD started from scratch on the PS3. The code base is completely new (a new O/S as per the translation) and that goes some way to explaining why it has taken so long.
It doesn't sound right to me that with a mere 8 weeks work left to do before needing to get into testing and QC to make their release date, KY would have no clue as to what features are going to make it. If these features are in such doubt as to be unconfirmable now, are they going to be transformed in 8 weeks when they've had 5 years to get this stuff in?
Still deciding "How to make weather make sense in the game" 8 weeks from finished? Er, he can't be much of a designer, can he!
It doesn't sound right to me that with a mere 8 weeks work left to do before needing to get into testing and QC to make their release date, KY would have no clue as to what features are going to make it.
The interview was held last week at SEMA (3-6 Nov '09) and it stands to reason that development, testing + QC are following a XP methodology / agile process as opposed to waterfall.
If these features are in such doubt as to be unconfirmable now, are they going to be transformed in 8 weeks when they've had 5 years to get this stuff in?
Transformed is probably too strong a word to use, but whether the features will be in the game depends on many things, such as where PD is at with the features, how many hours PD staff are working & intend to work. Ultimately Yamauchi-san makes the decisions.
Still deciding "How to make weather make sense in the game" 8 weeks from finished? Er, he can't be much of a designer, can he!
I'm certain that I'm not alone in thinking Yamauchi-san is a fantastic CEO and designer. You're entitled to your opinion.
Doesn't matter how well they've progressively tested during development, they still need an intensive final test. Especially as major features are apparently still in significant development right up until the end.
Does it not seem odd that such large features are in a state of limbo so close to final in such a long development cycle? Especially when they were at the stage of prologue over 2 years ago.
I assume the man had an actual design and vision for GT5 in place when they started? Or are they making it up as they go along and trying to cram major features in in the last 6 months?? I know which it looks most like, and that's a bit shocking for such a massive game from such a highly regarded developer.
Doesn't matter how well they've progressively tested during development, they still need an intensive final test. Especially as major features are apparently still in significant development right up until the end.
No, the whole point of agile programming is to remove the need to perform extensive testing at the end. Development is conducted with the idea of unit testing and regression testing for each sprint. All functionality needs to be modular and dynamic.
Does it not seem odd that such large features are in a state of limbo so close to final in such a long development cycle? Especially when they were at the stage of prologue over 2 years ago.
Who says anything to do with GT5 is "in limbo"? Again, the whole point of agile development is to avoid a long development cycle and to avoid leaving all the issues to be fixed until the end.
I assume the man had an actual design and vision for GT5 in place when they started?
Of course! Compare Vision Gran Turismo HD with the E3 GT5 trailer. Everyone knows that requirements do change over time and it has been a long time! It's just another good reason to adopt an agile methodology.
Or are they making it up as they go along and trying to cram major features in in the last 6 months?? I know which it looks most like, and that's a bit shocking for such a massive game from such a highly regarded developer.
There's a difference between having a studio of 110 people working on 1 game and a studio of 110 people working on lots of games.
I'm also surprised by your use of the term "major" features. Major to who? That's the point Yamauchi has already made - if the fans want it, then they'll work on it, but that doesn't mean it'll be in GT5... Remember, sensei said GT5 could be released whenever PD / Sony wants.
As per Mark's earlier comments, I'll be pretty happy with a bigger, broader version of GT5P, even if it doesn't have damage! Even so, as Yamauchi has already stated, implementing damage is not that hard. Day / night cycles aren't either. Nor is a rewind feature. A track "editor" (n.b. not creator) can be as easy as arranging traffic cones on a car park... We'll just have to wait and see how the various features have been implemented and if they make the final cut.
Again, the whole point of agile development is to avoid a long development cycle and to avoid leaving all the issues to be fixed until the end.
What more evidence do you need that PD do not take this approach, than your statement above?
I'm also surprised by your use of the term "major" features. Major to who?
So you're saying that effective damage modelling, the effect of weather and how it fits with the rest of the game (if it's dynamic), and the ability to edit and share tracks are not major features? They have so obviously been left until the end, that some of them might not happen. They are not insignificant features. Weather has been mentioned numerous times as a feature of GT5, and if it doesn't actually appear, *you* might be happy and not care, but there will be a pretty significant backlash from many people if it's absent.
What more evidence do you need that PD do not take this approach, than your statement above?
No. You are misinterpreting my statement and you are wrong. I am trying to explain how PD does utilise an agile development methodology, by following the concept of multiple sprints / coding / development cycles as opposed to waterfall. To repeat myself, Yamauchi has stated GT can be released whenever PD wants. Demos for various events can and have been produced quickly using different damage models.
They have so obviously been left until the end, that some of them might not happen.
After GT5 will come GT6 and so on... Each version will show some improvement and will no doubt edge ever closer to giving GT fans all they're asking for.
So you're saying that effective damage modelling, the effect of weather and how it fits with the rest of the game (if it's dynamic), and the ability to edit and share tracks are not major features? They are not insignificant features. Weather has been mentioned numerous times as a feature of GT5, and if it doesn't actually appear, *you* might be happy and not care, but there will be a pretty significant backlash from many people if it's absent.
Lets take those one point at a time.
1. Damage. I can cite recent online races in Forza 3 as an example where idiots have deliberately used my track position on a bend to ram me sideways off the road at full speed while they happily carry on. I thought the whole point of Forza 3's damage was to prevent this sort of thing? Well... The fact is - in spite of the simulation damage option being there, people don't use it - so it may as well not be there, it just makes the cars look sh!t.
2. Dynamic weather / lighting could be implemented in a variety of ways, such as having rain - or just having a wet track, having snow, fog, lightning storms, etc. Forza 2 & 3 don't have dynamic weather / lighting and again, I wonder how many people really want to race each other online using a wet track and how many people actually enjoy racing in the rain? I think most people would see it as a hindrance to setting better lap times and enjoying the racing online... Just another thing that will probably be switched 'off' except when a friend is over and they're showing off the game.
3. Track editing / sharing. As I previously described, this might just turn out to be a case of moving traffic cones around a car park and hitting a traffic cone would result in failure. If you'd played the license modes in GT4, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
So then, implemented at their worst - each of the features above wouldn't amount to anything I would personally use and others might feel the same after playing with it for 5 minutes. It all depends on how these things are being implemented and that's where Yamauchi needs to make the call nearer the release date.
The only reason fanboys like you come on here to slate GT is because you're constantly looking to argue how Forza 3 does X and that maybe GT5 won't provide the same - or more features. Here's a shocker for you... It's not the features implemented - it is the quality of them and whether they're actually of use. There's a difference between a useful feature and a feature that people simply want - because the other console has it!... Cross game chat comes to mind...
Anyway, I assure you that your opinion (and others) won't take anything from my enjoyment of GT5.
I've done no such thing. I've expressed some alarm that a $60 million development like GT5 can have features undecided with a couple of months development left. After 5 years. That's not slating.
I don't think you can claim some significant insight into the methodology of Polyphony. Making a prologue, and then a full game is not evidence of an approach that is going to reduce the typical final testing and quality control period. The fact is, the game needs to be finished in early to mid Jan to be out on time. That means they don't have long to finish up.
And regarding your online race in FM3.. Sim Damage is not available on any of the matchmaking hoppers yet. Then you will get the proper clean races which simulation damage promotes.
FM3 is also another good example for day/night and weather. It's official forums had masses of posts from people complaining about their absence. Even though it was stated at reveal time that they wouldn't be in the game. Now, if GT5 which has been touted as having both, turns up without them, there will be a lot of disappointed people who are currently expecting both features to be in there.
I've done no such thing. I've expressed some alarm that a $60 million development like GT5 can have features undecided with a couple of months development left. After 5 years. That's not slating.
Yes it is. First you're criticizing Yamauchi as a game designer, then you're "alarmed" at the cost involved in making GT5 so far... What's next troll?
The GT series has shifted well over 50M units and by GT4 had already made over $1 Billion US. I don't know why you're faking so much concern about $60M for PD's development when games like KZ2 cost $60M, MGS4 and GTA4 cost $100M. What that says to me is Sony has a commitment to funding and producing quality games.
I don't think you can claim some significant insight into the methodology of Polyphony. Making a prologue, and then a full game is not evidence of an approach that is going to reduce the typical final testing and quality control period.
Well I don't think you should be spending so much time thinking. You clearly need to brush up on process and design. You talk about agile development as if it's a novel concept, well it's not... I *KNOW* that PD use an agile methodology. I KNOW PD's studio based server farm is the 4th largest in Japan and that in addition to processing data for new builds 24/7, it's also processing data for car manufacturers and others. Heck, I can go one step further and can tell you for fact that Turn 10 also followed an agile process for Forza 3. Greenawalt has even gone on record as saying it was thanks to that Turn 10 hit their deadlines and incorporated the feature set it has.
The fact is, the game needs to be finished in early to mid Jan to be out on time. That means they don't have long to finish up.
The fact is, your "facts" aren't facts at all. They're just speculation on your part which has sod all to do with what PD is doing. Give it a rest.
And regarding your online race in FM3.. Sim Damage is not available on any of the matchmaking hoppers yet. Then you will get the proper clean races which simulation damage promotes.
Well, I didn't know that. I guess if that's true, then just like GT5 fans are, Forza fans are still waiting for realistic damage... How much longer will Forza fans be waiting? It can't be all that important if Turn 10 couldn't be bothered to include it on release! Funny that you should now say this after all the rubbish you Forza fanboys have bleated about GT5 + bumper cars online! The shoe is certainly on the other foot now!
FM3 is also another good example for day/night and weather. It's official forums had masses of posts from people complaining about their absence. Even though it was stated at reveal time that they wouldn't be in the game.
As I said before, it is simply an often requested feature. Any forum chatter about day / night + weather is almost certainly due to all the speculation around GT5. I'd be surprised to see it incorporated into Forza 3 at all.
Now, if GT5 which has been touted as having both, turns up without them, there will be a lot of disappointed people who are currently expecting both features to be in there.
If it hasn't yet occurred to you (even despite me already saying so), it doesn't matter what makes it into GT5, people will always want more, even if it's something they'll never make use of. Whether people really are actually disappointed with GT5 or not, I expect to hear many stories from "many disappointed people". Well f**k 'em. I really don't care, because I'll be too busy looking good.
Very funny. Development is development. Almost everyone uses a more progressive /agile approach these days. But it *doesn't* mean you don't need a proper test and QA upon going final, which was my point. It sure does limit the potential for significant problems to show up late and cause slippage, sure.
(Why LVP raised the 'agile' argument, as if my point that final test, certification and manufacture would mean they only have about 2 months development time remaining was somehow wrong? Does anyone think a March 2010 release date means they'll still be working on it in late Feb???)
As for his FM3 damage rant.. it's the public online servers *only* that don't feature sim damage yet. These servers run a a cycle of game types for people to easily drop into, and the number of game variations on there will grow over time. It certainly isn't the case that "Forza fans are still waiting for realistic damage."
Very funny. Development is development. Almost everyone uses a more progressive /agile approach these days. But it *doesn't* mean you don't need a proper test and QA upon going final, which was my point. It sure does limit the potential for significant problems to show up late and cause slippage, sure.
Man the pumps! Grab your buckets! The boat is sinking!
(Why LVP raised the 'agile' argument, as if my point that final test, certification and manufacture would mean they only have about 2 months development time remaining was somehow wrong? Does anyone think a March 2010 release date means they'll still be working on it in late Feb???)
I said end of Jan. That's long enough to meet an end of March release date in Japan. Your ideas are still way off base. There is no release date for the US / EU / other yet. Anyone for GT5 Spec II? The parameters for release are only fixed within the limited boundaries of *your* mind eltonbird. The GT franchise is too big to be contained!
The GT franchise has sold so many copies that Kazunori Yamauchi can release GT5 all on one disc, two discs, in stages - both online and on Blu-ray, or however he thinks is best. GT5P has sold 4.17M copies worldwide - that's more than any Forza game! As I said before, Kazunori Yamauchi makes the call. You seem to argue with it a lot, so I think maybe you hate that fact!
As for his FM3 damage rant.. it's the public online servers *only* that don't feature sim damage yet. It certainly isn't the case that "Forza fans are still waiting for realistic damage."
Now that is very funny. On the one hand you say the public online servers don't feature sim damage and on the other hand you say Forza fans "aren't" waiting for it. If I was a three-handed mutant I'd also say on the other hand Forza fans will be waiting a long time for realistic damage! Then again, maybe I'm a four-handed mutant and can point to how empty the online servers are! There's no-one around to care about Forza 3's damage!
Just where are all the Forza fans? There's 3 times as many X360 owners (30M+) around today as there were in May '07, yet Forza 3 has sold ~700k copies. That's not a bad figure as Forza 3 sold more copies (~515k) than Forza 2 (~350k) in its first week, but then it dropped off the radar... Maybe it'll take a while for FM3's legs to grow? Maybe everyone's waiting for it to hit the bargain bins? Borderlands (a concurrently running release) has sold almost as many copies on all formats... Do you think maybe all the Forza fans have been saving their money for CoD6, or do you think maybe everyone's defecting & going out to buy PlayStation 3's?
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